Post Office Scandal

[Steve]

I hate to ask an obvious question but just what does this sex offender have to do with the Post Office scandal?

I mentioned it in reply to my comment that the whole system is unfit for purpose...

It isn't just a problem with understanding complex computer systems - the whole thing top to bottom is FUBAR from the Police to the CPS to the Parole system...

Your forum but at this rate this thread will become a hobby horse for each and every issue with the justice system IMHO not what the OP wanted

[Tipsy Gipsy]

Computer Weekly were the people that first broke this story 13 years ago.  Here's their original article https://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240089230/Bankruptcy-prosecution-and-disrupted-livelihoods-Postmasters-tell-their-story (may need to register to read) but the first prosecution was around 2000.
 
What the CPS, courts in general and the police need to understand is the fallibility of complex computer systems and the willingness of project managers to try and cut corners in validation.  While it is relatively easy to generate a computer system that appears to work and  may look impressive in demonstrations, proving them to 'trusted computer' status takes a massive amount of work especially in validation and testing if proper work has not been done in the design phase.  And in my experience, some engineers, some managers and even some company directors will always try and see corners cut when they see schedule and budget pressures. 
 
Slightly worrying is that the CPS still appears to think it was a good thing that standards for computer based evidence in courts were just about scrapped in 1999 
 
Here's a more recent Computer Weekly article on why they think Fujitsu have got away with this, that they're still winning government contracts and the timeline of their reports on it
 
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252509066/Fujitsu-escaped-huge-lawsuit-because-Post-Office-behaved-so-badly-in-Horizon-scandal

Thanks Steve.   It’s shameful that these people have not had more support.  I was shocked when I first heard the story about 10 years ago and I no less shocked about it now.   

[Tipsy Gipsy]

The whole thing is utterly disgusting but will be ignored/forgotten far too quickly...

There have been so many miscarriages of justice, Michael Stone being another one recently and god knows how many others never come to light.

The system really is unfit for purpose.

I have absolutely no faith in the Police or the 'justice' system, it has become a complete joke... 

And yet another...

'Extremely dangerous' sex offender, 56, ESCAPES from Lincolnshire open prison where he was serving two life sentences after he broke into a house through a cat flap and sexually assaulted woman - as police warn he could be 'anywhere in the country'

WTF was an 'extremely dangerous' double-life prisoner doing in an open prison? 

You are right,  yesterday all over the news here was the story of a lady who had an accident caught on her dash camera.   She gave police her details as a witness and expected them to follow up in asking for the footage as it was a bad accident for the pedestrian.   She heard nothing so when a follow up story came on the news later she was so annoyed she has started putting it out in the media about the lack of response.   The police response was that they have 25000 to investigate every year.    They won’t get very far with those investigations if they don’t gather the evidence though will they. 

Thinking about it though, they’ve plenty of evidence about parties in London happening but they weren’t any good at taking that forward either.

 

[Uncle Mort]

Trust:

The Government
The Police
The Post Office
The Justice System
The NHS (especially GPs)
Big Companies
even some Royalty

The list goes on...

 

[Barman]

Trust:

The Government
The Police
The Post Office
The Justice System
The NHS (especially GPs)
Big Companies
even some Royalty

The list goes on...

 

Zackly... Is the worm turning though...? 

[Steve]

Trust:

The Government
The Police
The Post Office
The Justice System
The NHS (especially GPs)
Big Companies
even some Royalty

The list goes on...

 

GPs at my local surgery are superb

[Tipsy Gipsy]

The English specifically are dissuaded from participating in politics and this is the result. 

[Uncle Mort]

Going back to the PO scandal. This computer system fault caused shortfalls in the weekly receipts. Over 700 people were accused of theft yet that only represents about 6% of all sub Post Offices.

Why did the majority of the systems work OK? What was the fault?

[Steve]

Going back to the PO scandal. This computer system fault caused shortfalls in the weekly receipts. Over 700 people were accused of theft yet that only represents about 6% of all sub Post Offices.

Why did the majority of the systems work OK? What was the fault?

From what I've read, the system in testing showed it could miss transactions of certain types at times so the likelihood of getting an incorrect read out was higher depending on the nature of customer traffic at some post offices. 
 
One of the astonishing things is no one seems to have asked if the wider area accounts didn't reconcile.  If someone was nicking £thousands then at some level the post office would have been missing thousands.

 

[Steve]

More today of how badly some were treated and the impact on them https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60402957
 
Why aren't they paying them big money on account now? 

[Uncle Mort]

From your link:

Initially, Mr Graham said the discrepancies were small and he often topped up the balance himself.

"It was a case of taking money out of my wallet and putting it into the Post Office," he said, adding that soon he couldn't afford it, with the shortfall on one day showing up as £5,000.

Seems to be a common theme. Not the brightest behaviour.

[Steve]

No as a rule if accounts don't reconcile by as much as 1p always check why

[Grumpmeister]

Going back to the PO scandal. This computer system fault caused shortfalls in the weekly receipts. Over 700 people were accused of theft yet that only represents about 6% of all sub Post Offices.

Why did the majority of the systems work OK? What was the fault?

At a guess I'd say that whoever configured it for those sites managed to royally cock something up. Saw something similar happen with some predictive diallers back in the day. 

[Steve]

A big problem is that dispersed computing systems are so dynamic in their inputs, their loadings, their interconnects and even available computing resources.  These all defy the normal techniques for verifying the design and deployment of a key computing system.
 
It's been seen time after time that what works in the lab doesn't always work in such a real world field so you have to alpha and beta text and if it's to be used for any key function then test it over and over like the banks do.   But they knew all that.
 

[Tipsy Gipsy]

It isn’t just the system, get the integration wrong and it’s stuffed.  Precisely the bit that they avoid testing properly.