Author Topic: Surprised this hadnt been mentioned before  (Read 1443 times)

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Offline Grumpmeister

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Surprised this hadnt been mentioned before
« on: March 25, 2008, 12:07:48 PM »
So is this the shape of things to come. Brown allowing MP's to abstain from voting on a piece of legislation as long as it is allowed to go through? Granted hybridising human DNA with animal cells is a controversial subject but this approach is a very disturbing direction for the government to take.

I have friends and family who would benefit from this research but even so I think it should be put to a fair and free vote and not forced through. This sets a far too dangerous precendent.

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Health Secretary Alan Johnson has said an "accommodation" will be reached for Labour MPs who are opposed to parts of a controversial embryo research bill.
The government has faced pressure to allow a free vote on legislation to let scientists create embryos that combine human DNA and animal cells.

MPs may be allowed to abstain on parts of the bill, as long as its passage is not threatened.

Mr Johnson said MPs would not have to vote against their conscience or faith.

Prominent Catholic clergy have called for MPs to have a free vote.

Alan Johnson told Sky News: "I believe... once we have discussed all these issues and seen all the safeguards in the bill, that there will not be a split.

"But there will be an accommodation for those who have a particular sensitivity around this, including those whose sensitivity relates to their faith."

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, the Roman Catholic leader in England and Wales, said MPs would want to vote on the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill according to their convictions.

"Certainly, there are some aspects of this bill on which I believe there ought to be a free vote, because Catholics and others will want to vote according to their conscience," he told Sky News in an interview broadcast on Sunday.

"I don't think it should be subject to the party whip."

The government says the medical benefits of allowing the creation of hybrid embryos for research purposes could ease the suffering of millions of people.

I never throught I would say this as I hate Cormac with a passion after it became obvious he was moving paedophile priests around to protect the church at the expense of their victims but I agree. This should be a matter of conscience although not religion. Odds are most of us will know someone who could benefit from this technology if it is further developed.

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For people out there suffering from Parkinson's disease and motor neurone disease, this is not a question of some issue about the procedure through the House of Commons. This is an issue about whether we can find the drugs that can cure their illnesses

The embryos are made by combining animal eggs with human nuclei, which can then be grown into stem cells and used by scientists. The bill comes in response to a shortage of available human eggs for research.

Health Secretary Alan Johnson said the bill tackles deadly and debilitating diseases, and said it was a distortion to talk of it producing Frankensteins and "hybrid monsters".

"For people out there suffering from Parkinson's disease and motor neurone disease, this is not a question of some issue about the procedure through the House of Commons," he told BBC News 24.

The Frankenstein argument is stupid anyway. Take the nucleus out of a cell and its like a computer without an operating system. It cant do anything. It is only when there is a nucleus in the cell that it can start to perform whatever task it was created for no matter whether you are talking human or animal cells.


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"This is an issue about whether we can find the drugs that can cure their illnesses. So this is the heart of the matter."

Mr Brown has faced growing dissent over the bill, including from several prominent ministers.

One Catholic Labour MP, Joe Benton, has warned that a "substantial number" of fellow Labour MPs are ready to defy the government if there is no free vote.

Welsh Secretary Paul Murphy is reportedly prepared to quit the cabinet rather than vote for the bill. Other Catholics in the cabinet are Transport Secretary Ruth Kelly and Defence Secretary Des Browne.

Well if Kelly and Browne end up quitting over this issue it will hardly be a great loss to the country now will it.

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Northern Ireland Secretary Shaun Woodward said the bill was an important piece of government business which must be passed, but suggested a compromise was possible.

He told Sky News: "I believe it is possible, if we listen to the arguments and we remove the misunderstandings, to find a way forward so the government can complete its business."

But in an interview with the Sunday Telegraph, Labour MP Stephen Byers - a former cabinet minister under Tony Blair - said the public would "look on in disbelief" if Mr Brown did not offer a free vote.

Send us your commentsOther senior Catholic clergymen including Scottish leader Cardinal Keith O'Brien and the Archbishop of Cardiff, Peter Smith, have also called on Mr Brown to allow a free vote.

And on Sunday the Anglican Bishop of Durham issued a rallying call to all faiths to object to the "1984-style" proposals.

The Right Reverend Tom Wright accused ministers of pushing through legislation from "a militantly atheist and secularist lobby".

Liberal Democrat Evan Harris, a member of the Commons Innovation, Universities, Science and Skills Select Committee, said it was right to conduct research that "might be used to treat people with terrible diseases".

The bill received its first reading in the House of Commons in February, and while no date has been set for its second reading - or approval in principle - it is viewed as a key piece of legislation on the government's agenda.

Conservative leader David Cameron and Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg will allow their MPs a free vote.

The bill is designed to bring the 1990 regulatory framework for fertility treatment and embryo research in line with scientific advances.
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Offline Snoopy

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Re: Surprised this hadnt been mentioned before
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2008, 12:19:00 PM »
TBH I thought this had come up in another thread as a side issue.

MPs are elected to represent the views of those who elect them. Issues such as this should be put to a free vote at the very least enabling MPs to seek and then vote according to the views of their constituents .... though I personally believe it is so far removed from any election manifesto that it needs a referendum.

The way it stands GB is the sole arbiter and he was elected only by a few deluded Scots and that was it. He was not even elected leader of the Labour party but got the job unopposed and was certainly not elected to be PM by a majority of the country. IMHO he has no right to bulldoze this through .... whether you agree with it or not ~ it is plain wrong to go about it this way.
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Offline Grumpmeister

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Re: Surprised this hadnt been mentioned before
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2008, 12:29:41 PM »
TBH I thought this had come up in another thread as a side issue.

That was me, it was why I was surprised this hadnt been given its own post.

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Offline Barman

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Re: Surprised this hadnt been mentioned before
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2008, 12:34:00 PM »
TBH I thought this had come up in another thread as a side issue.

MPs are elected to represent the views of those who elect them. Issues such as this should be put to a free vote at the very least enabling MPs to seek and then vote according to the views of their constituents .... though I personally believe it is so far removed from any election manifesto that it needs a referendum.

The way it stands GB is the sole arbiter and he was elected only by a few deluded Scots and that was it. He was not even elected leader of the Labour party but got the job unopposed and was certainly not elected to be PM by a majority of the country. IMHO he has no right to bulldoze this through .... whether you agree with it or not ~ it is plain wrong to go about it this way.
I agree Snoops… if it is in the election manifesto and MP’s buy into it then they should tow (toe?) the party line…

If it is not in the manifesto then they shouldn’t be forced to. Simple as that.
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Offline Grumpmeister

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Re: Surprised this hadnt been mentioned before
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2008, 12:41:47 PM »
Its toe BM.

The biggest worry about all of this is that Gordo realises that this is an easy way to get any of his hair brained schemes through parliament.
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Offline Snoopy

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Re: Surprised this hadnt been mentioned before
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 12:42:27 PM »
Toe is correct. It comes from stepping up to a line to ensure that all the ranks are level .... think Trooping the Colour Ceremony. Everytime they march about a bit they do that shuffling into line business.

I was once on the route lining contingent provided by the RAF at a "Trooping" ~ bout halfway down the Mall, in the days when we stood with our backs to the crowd. Some little b@st@rd on his father's shoulders tried to nick me bayonet. Words were spoken in basic Anglo Saxon.
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Offline Grumpmeister

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Re: Surprised this hadnt been mentioned before
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2008, 01:16:05 PM »
News just in, Brown allows them to have a 'free' vote on parts of the bill as long as they back the whole thing when it comes to the house.

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Gordon Brown says Labour MPs will be given a free vote on controversial parts of his embryo research proposals.
He said he thought the measures were of huge importance but that he respected the ethical issues involved for some.

The prime minister said if those plans were backed by MPs, he expects all Labour MPs to vote in favour when there is the final vote on the whole bill.

The PM made the compromise after warnings that a large number of Labour MPs were ready to defy the government.

The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill is designed to bring existing laws on fertility treatment and embryo research into line with scientific advances.

The government wants Labour MPs to support the legislation, but Catholic MPs say it is ethically wrong and unless there is a free vote, there has been speculation about a rebellion and Cabinet resignations.

The three areas where he said there would be free votes during the passage of the bill are IVF research, saviour siblings and Admix embryo.
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.