Looks like being a fun week.

[GROWLER]

H & S officials feeding a couple of guests today.

[Snoopy]

In general terms the display should take place parallel with the "crowd line" and at no point should the manouvers take the aircraft toward the spectators.

See: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CivilAirDisplaysAGuideforPilots.pdf

The positioning of the spectators is really a matter for the organisers to agree with the Local Authority who will have licenced the event.

It's all down to yer 'elf n safety innit.

Further info at: http://www.adae.co.uk/helpnadvice.htm

And the Law is at: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1987/Uksi_19871812_en_1.htm

[Snoopy]

And if you had all stood where you were and told them to fvck off what could they have done?

The few that remained slightly defiant were warned over the p.a., that if we didn't move then the inement displays would be called off.
I'm half inclined to contact the C.A.A. to see if this ruling was in fact in place for todays show.
We weren't all wandering around the beach aimlessly, the vast majority were sitting...like me and my tribe, against the wall on the beach, enjoying a bit of breathing space and a sit down after a long walk.
Bloody jobsworthy tossers.

I love the idea that some arsehole on the beach is going to be able to tell 9 BAE Systems Hawk T1s screaming over the Dee Estuary at 500 mph to stop. 

[GROWLER]

In general terms the display should take place parallel with the "crowd line" and at no point should the manouvers take the aircraft toward the spectators.

Well that ones' straight out the window.
Manouvers take place both parrallel and towards the crowd. Same this year as in previous.

[GROWLER]

And if you had all stood where you were and told them to fvck off what could they have done?

The few that remained slightly defiant were warned over the p.a., that if we didn't move then the inement displays would be called off.
I'm half inclined to contact the C.A.A. to see if this ruling was in fact in place for todays show.
We weren't all wandering around the beach aimlessly, the vast majority were sitting...like me and my tribe, against the wall on the beach, enjoying a bit of breathing space and a sit down after a long walk.
Bloody jobsworthy tossers.

I love the idea that some arsehole on the beach is going to be able to tell 9 BAE Systems Hawk T1s screaming over the Dee Estuary at 500 mph to stop. 

The beach was cleared a good 20 minutes before the first display arrived. Plenty of time to radio through I suspect.

[GROWLER]

From my previous 'visual' experiences of air shows, it seems (to me)to matter not one bloody jot where the spectators are standing. If an aircraft is going to go out of control, it doesn't 'thoughtfully' decide to avoid the crowd, especially if the pilot has bailed out, it'll bloody well crash where it crashes. Crowd or no crowd. You are there at your own risk, with the full knowledge of the possible dangers involved.
"Get back 10' off the sand behind the metal railings"....MY FAT ARSE!
At least on the sand you stand a small chance of digging a 40' hole to dive into before the crash landing ffs.

[Snoopy]

Having worked (briefly) with the Red Arrows I couldn't agree more but the point about manouvers is that should they go wrong the speed of the aircraft should carry it clear of the spectators hence they may over-fly but they will do the fancy stuff parallel (which gives everyone the best view) but the pilots are well aware that the biggest thrill for the crowd if the sheer noise and vibration as they go over your heads.
It is, as I said, much more to do with the Local Authority's interpretation of the Health and Safety legislation and the advice pack the RAF supply them.

A good example is the village show I organised here four years ago. I had arranged to use a field belonging to a local farmer ~ the County Council insisted on the Fire Brigade carrying out an inspection and issuing a certificate. The field is surrounded by a dry stone wall of about four feet in height with a gate from the roadway ~ which we proposed should be the entrance and exit. There are two other gates which lead into adjoining fields but these fields were full of sheep and, understandably, the farmer had padlocked them. No vehicles other than show vehicles were to be allowed on the field and they all had to be on site 1 hour before we admitted the public. They also had to sign a contract which said they could not leave until the field was clear of visitors. The Fire Brigade would not issue a licence on the three acre grass field because it had "insufficient exits in the event of an emergency". Without that clearance from the Fire Officer the H&S at the County Council would not let the show go ahead.
I appealed on the grounds that nobody would be trapped by such a low wall should there be an emergency and in any event what emergency could there be from a show of village crafts, sheep dog handling and a brass band. A different fire officer came out to see me and passed the field as safe BUT they charged for the two inspections.

[Barman]

I remember many years ago attending the British Grand Prix which was at Brands Hatch at the time. The Red Arrows performed right above the crowd ? I had to lie on my back to take pictures of them coming vertically straight towards us (unfortunately I over-exposed every shot).

Nowadays, air shows are watered down incredibly to meet ?safety standards? and ensure that nobody so much as breaks a toe nail while the event is on. The crowd want the noise and danger, they accept that there is a risk; they know that it could all go terribly wrong yet air shows are more popular than ever. It seems to me that it is only the ?people in charge? that have this disproportionate fear of disaster and I wonder how long it will be before air shows and other ?dangerous events? are banned altogether.

Snoopy: I had similar problems with the fire brigade after we refurbished one of our industrial units in Reading. One of the fire exits led to a small sloppy (?m high) topped by a small picket fence ? it was the property boundary. No matter that there were never more than 15 people in the building, there were three other exits and a disabled granny could have got up the slope and over (or through) the fence the fire brigade stazi withheld the licence for the whole building.
 

[Snoopy]

I have never understood the Fire Brigades refusal to accept just what people, even the disabled, are capable of doing, when the flames are licking at their arse.

The world is not made up of large areas of safety around every potential hazard, nor, in an emergency, will people respond in the manner recommended, no matter how many "training " sessions, "drills" and notices are paid for.

Too much "Consider what if" training for too many "officials" who ~ and let's be honest here ~ if they had much in the way of sense, wouldn't be in the job in the first place.

[Barman]

I have never understood the Fire Brigades refusal to accept just what people, even the disabled, are capable of doing, when the flames are licking at their arse.

The world is not made up of large areas of safety around every potential hazard, nor, in an emergency, will people respond in the manner recommended, no matter how many "training " sessions, "drills" and notices are paid for.

Too much "Consider what if" training for too many "officials" who ~ and let's be honest here ~ if they had much in the way of sense, wouldn't be in the job in the first place.

Agree with you?

In our own case we had jumped through every single hoop that they?d demanded: -

Sophisticated fire alarm/smoke detection system linked to fire brigade.
Extra fire exits
Latest fire cladding
2 hour fire doors at the end of every corridor.
More fire extinguishers than you could shake a stick at
Regular fire alarm tests
Regular unscheduled evacuation tests[/li][/list]

Basically I think the more you comply with their wishes the more things they think of to put in your way.

[GROWLER]

This reminds me of what was said to me when I was given the opportunity to drive a Lotus Vauxhall single seater race car 5 years ago.
Getting into it, being a well built bloke fat bastard, was, to put it mildly, difficult.
With the help of the instructor, I squeezed in, but showed my concern by asking them, "what happens if I crash the bloody thing and it bursts into flames?"
The answer was quite true simple and to the point.
"Look fellah, if your arse is on fire, you WILL get out, no doubt about it!"

[Snoopy]

Never a truer word 

[Barman]

If only that attitude were more common?

[GROWLER]

If only that attitude were more common?

Which one?

[Barman]

If only that attitude were more common?

Which one?

The sensible attitude about the fire in the car?

I remember my flying instructor explaining the evacuation procedure ? basically along the lines of ?if you look at my seat and its empty get out?.