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Author Topic: Corona Bingo...  (Read 74420 times)

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Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1080 on: October 30, 2020, 01:33:17 PM »
I have to ask do you want to discuss this seriously?
Well, whatever, nevermind

Offline Uncle Mort

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1081 on: October 30, 2020, 01:52:52 PM »
Seems to me he's making a serious point; How long do we continue the lockdowns?

Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1082 on: October 30, 2020, 02:14:04 PM »
BM knows why I have to ask
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Offline Barman

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1083 on: October 30, 2020, 02:22:31 PM »
I have to ask do you want to discuss this seriously?

Go on then...
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Offline Barman

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1084 on: October 30, 2020, 02:22:59 PM »
Seems to me he's making a serious point; How long do we continue the lockdowns?

Exactly... How long can we...?
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Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1085 on: October 30, 2020, 02:50:41 PM »
I have to ask do you want to discuss this seriously?

Go on then...

We entered lockdown on March 24th.  Looking at detected case data is no indicator as we were then woefully unable to field enough tests.  But we can look at patient admissions to hospital for Covid and deaths from Covid that might be expected to lag 2 and 3 weeks behind measures.

And what do we find

Patient admissions peaked on April 7th (2 weeks to the day after) with a 7 day rolling average of 3,115 per day

Deaths peaked on April 13th (nigh on that very 3 weeks) with a 7 day rolling average of 942 per day

A month later the death rate had more than halved and patient admissions even more reduced.  However if we hadn't had those lockdown benefits the prospects were the quadrupling and doubling per week per week of deaths and patients in hospital would have had us at hundreds of thousands of both daily deaths and in hospital patients by that month after.  The NHS only has 150,000 beds and not too many true ICU beds   We'd have been well fucked

You can get all the data at https://coronavirus-staging.data.gov.uk/ (loads of drill down and downloads available) but this chart shows it well especially the effect of over relaxing lockdowns from the end of July



And if you don't trust the BBC make your own spreadsheet or you could just trust mine

I'd love to be able to assert that we don't need some form of lockdown but this side of a vaccine we very much do.  Because unless you subscribe to the Creme Eggs theory the evidence is overwhelming that some form of lockdowns are the only tool we have
 
Are all the details of lockdown what I'd do?  No but we're arguing about the principle
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 02:57:31 PM by Steve »
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Offline Barman

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1086 on: October 30, 2020, 03:02:22 PM »
I have to ask do you want to discuss this seriously?

Go on then...

We entered lockdown on March 24th.  Looking at detected case data is no indicator as we were then woefully unable to field enough tests.  But we can look at patient admissions to hospital for Covid and deaths from Covid that might be expected to lag 2 and 3 weeks behind measures.

And what do we find

Patient admissions peaked on April 7th (2 weeks to the day after) with a 7 day rolling average of 3,115 per day

Deaths peaked on April 13th (nigh on that very 3 weeks) with a 7 day rolling average of 942 per day

A month later the death rate had more than halved and patient admissions even more reduced.  However if we hadn't had those lockdown benefits the prospects were the quadrupling and doubling per week per week of deaths and patients in hospital would have had us at hundreds of thousands of both daily deaths and in hospital patients by that month after.  The NHS only has 150,000 beds and not too many true ICU beds   We'd have been well fucked

You can get all the data at https://coronavirus-staging.data.gov.uk/ (loads of drill down and downloads available) but this chart shows it well especially the effect of over relaxing lockdowns from the end of July



And if you don't trust the BBC make your own spreadsheet or you could just trust mine

I'd love to be able to assert that we don't need some form of lockdown but this side of a vaccine we very much do.  Because unless you subscribe to the Creme Eggs theory the evidence is overwhelming that some form of lockdowns are the only tool we have
 
Are all the details of lockdown what I'd do?  No but we're arguing about the principle

And Sweden...? ::)

Of course case data is relevant...

Back in March 'cases' were people being ill - not positive tests on people with no symptoms and 'cases' were falling before Lockdown.

Lockdown hasn't worked anywhere - Locking down only delays the inevitable while creating many other problems. The cure really will be significantly worse than the disease IMHO....
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Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1087 on: October 30, 2020, 04:02:33 PM »
What's the evidence cases were falling before lockdown on March 24th?   The UK figures don't show that and neither do the Cyprus ones https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/cyprus/

Like it or not Lockdown worked
 
You could try arguing alternatives might have worked and you mention Sweden that did voluntary lockdown and being largely single generational households and obedient souls that worked for a while but it ain't looking so good there now

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
 
Do you really think voluntary lockdown would have worked in the UK?   FFS we can't even get people to park legally





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Offline Barman

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1088 on: October 31, 2020, 05:55:50 AM »
What's the evidence cases were falling before lockdown on March 24th?   The UK figures don't show that and neither do the Cyprus ones https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/cyprus/

Like it or not Lockdown worked
 
You could try arguing alternatives might have worked and you mention Sweden that did voluntary lockdown and being largely single generational households and obedient souls that worked for a while but it ain't looking so good there now

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/
 
Do you really think voluntary lockdown would have worked in the UK?   FFS we can't even get people to park legally

The evidence has been out there for months... I really can't be arsed to find it but if you are really interested, I'd direct you to the Lockdown Sceptics site.

The fact is Lockdowns don't work to eradicate the virus, they just delay it. If they worked there would be no need for second or third Lockdowns because they would have worked the first time.

There can be no dispute (surely) that the original stated aim of the Lockdown was to 'flatten the curve' and buy time for the health services. Somehow over time this has evolved into buying time until a vaccine has been developed - in the meanwhile destroying lives and economies all over the world.

Lastly, the data is there - there is simply no correlation between severity of lockdown and rate of deaths from the virus.

As for Sweden, their economy remains open, bars shops and restaurants doing fine, no curfew, kids at school, no face nappies - doesn't look so bad to me actually.

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Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1089 on: October 31, 2020, 10:18:28 AM »
Quote
. . .The fact is Lockdowns don't work to eradicate the virus, they just delay it. If they worked there would be no need for second or third Lockdowns because they would have worked the first time.  . . .
I don't recall anyone of provenance saying lockdowns would eradicate it, they were always about buying time and preventing massive overload on the NHS.  And at that they worked very well but then with all good intents we relaxed them too much . 

Anyway will go look at that skeptics site and see if it changes my mind.  Might be a few hours as very biz right now

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Offline Barman

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1090 on: October 31, 2020, 10:37:22 AM »
Quote
. . .The fact is Lockdowns don't work to eradicate the virus, they just delay it. If they worked there would be no need for second or third Lockdowns because they would have worked the first time.  . . .
I don't recall anyone of provenance saying lockdowns would eradicate it, they were always about buying time and preventing massive overload on the NHS.  And at that they worked very well but then with all good intents we relaxed them too much . 

Anyway will go look at that skeptics site and see if it changes my mind.  Might be a few hours as very biz right now

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Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1091 on: October 31, 2020, 04:35:37 PM »
Well seems we are about to get another big lockdown whatever
 
But to that site.  It's a collection of blog posts so is a difficult read but in essence it seems to make two points

a) government projections are less than accurate

b) the original lockdown justification was wrong

On (a) he seems to be pushing the less than honest inference that if something isn't 100% right it has to be totally rejected.  Well that's false thinking unless you have a better projection to work with.  We don't

On (b) it all boils down to this article he wrote and was published freely viewable here:  https://thecritic.co.uk/has-the-government-over-reacted-to-the-coronavirus-crisis/

And in essence that article says we should never have had the first lockdown because the maths don't support the death avoidance value analysis.  Well I don't know about his £££ analysis (it looks questionable) but he's projecting a false point again.  The March 23rd announced lockdown was not about money but because the NHS was already struggling and was projected to become massively overwhelmed.  The maths aren't hard to do when you have over 1200 Covid admissions a day and it's doubling every week. 
 
Had the NHS got anywhere near 10,000 admissions a day it would have failed and you would get all sorts of societal breakdown issues if that ever happens and the cost of those would outweigh that £350B mooted cost of Lockdown
 
Hospital admissions are already above where they were on March 23rd and while they are increasing they are nothing like the exponential rate we had in March.  That makes another big lockdown debateable, I await their words.
 
But the death rate is now over 250 a day rising at over 55% a week.  We have to do something

https://coronavirus-staging.data.gov.uk/

 
Well, whatever, nevermind

Offline Nick

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1092 on: October 31, 2020, 07:24:09 PM »
Even that twat Johnson and his cronies are going for a one month lockdown now. Trump said it was a "Democrat Hoax". One quarter of a million dead Americans later and 90000 cases a day and rising, I say hats off to the Democrats for the most successful hoax in history.

I have no desire to catch this from some dumbo who breathes on me with no mask as I will surely die, especially if both of my 2 local hospitals have cases spilling out of the doors.

If the Tories are shutting down the country on scientific advice then they know how bad it is. Johnson used the word "moral" in his briefing earlier on!! I nearly fainted.
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Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1093 on: October 31, 2020, 07:47:05 PM »
I detest Boris and his abject lack of morals but he did that briefing well

Whether this is the right action I do not know but to me this was the chart that screamed 'Action needed'

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Offline Steve

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Re: Corona Bingo...
« Reply #1094 on: October 31, 2020, 08:17:36 PM »
Well, whatever, nevermind