Public behaviour... or lack of it

[Pastis]

I've been watching the Dispatches programme on Helen Newlove's plight after the murder of her husband Gary. An uphill struggle if ever there was one. Here in London the weekly toll of stabbings continues to increase and no one seems able to stem the tide.

Well, I have an opportunity to have my say. The local school, whose pupils have caused much concern with their public behaviour, have asked me to a meeting. I'm not a parent but a local resident who's obliged (by my proximity) to witness all manner of misdemeanours; fights, scrapping, shouting and swearing, theft, insults, happy slapping, running in the road endangering their lives, the list goes on. I haven't witnessed a stabbing yet (thank God!) but there have been a couple. Yes, these are the girls and boys who are right on the edge of losing their lives week in, week out.

This isn't going to be some kind of Question Time debate, it's going to be a direct confrontation from a few local interested parties with the school's principals. I'm quite looking forward to it albeit with a heavy heart; it's not going to be a blast of grumpiness on an internet forum but a direct calling to account on standards of public behaviour.

I have some very specific points I want to raise and seek answers and solutions to. Anybody want to pitch in with their six penny worth?

[Snoopy]

I really wish you every success BUT in my experience you will all have your say and the "powers that be" will return your services with volleys of platitudes and backhand strokes down the line of excuses all well disguised to sound like concern. At the end of it all you will leave thinking that nothing will change and you will be right. Such local meetings with School Managers (for that is how the senior staff at the schools now see themselves), possibly the local Police Inspector and the odd social worker or two fulfil the need, imposed upon them by Government, for them to "consult" with and "take into account the views" of the local community.
There will be promises made to ensure that measures are being taken, you will all be asked to help in unclear and unspecified ways. The local police will suggest you do not interfer but rather keep a diary of incidents witnessed, that you can then produce to support the (and here they will be really condescending) "anecdotal" evidence you have produced at the meeting in support of your arguments. They will tell you of the sterling work being done by the Police Community Support Officers, of the powers that they (the police) now have to deal with the problems but how they are forced, due to lack of finance resources, to prioritise their responses to calls from concerned residents.
The school managers will tell you of their helplessness to control children before they enter and once they have left the school premises. They will speak of their policies regarding bullying, "buddy" schemes and their commitment to the, once again Government imposed, P.H.S.E. in the national curriculum (Personal, Health and Social Education sometimes known by the shorthand title "Citizenship") BUT again they will stress that it is a matter for parents to control their children once the bell has rung at the end of the school day and that teachers can no longer correct children in the streets the way they used to (cue more condescension) when "you were young". They will smile sympathetically at your total lack of understanding of how "modern society works".
I could go on but by now you will have realised that I have fought this fight. I have in fact spent the past 6 years attending such meetings held every three months locally and we have still not progressed beyond the stories put forward at the first meeting and the answers given to them. The Police have produced, at cost to the public purse (and here you should be aware that Government funds are available for such purposes but can only be accessed once the meetings are being held ~ so that explains why the Schools and Police are prepared to attend them), a great many pamphlets and "diaries" for the public. They have even come up with Biro's, with catchy slogans on them and keyrings with the Crimestoppers 'phone number on, to ensure you have to hand the means to write in the diaries and the appropriate numbers to call ~ however when you phone and ask for a copper to be sent "I'm afraid we are dealing with other incidents at the moment but we'll get someone round to take a statement as soon as possible" and you'll get a visit from the PCSO sometime next week. If you are really lucky you will receive (a month at least after you made the call) a letter from the "Victim Support" officer offering you counselling. Should you accept this offer a social worker will 'phone you at inconvenient times to say she cannot make an appointment to call because she is "overwhelmed with cases" but will send you a pamphlet.

Cynical? Moi? I should fvcking say I am.

It is at times like these that I lean toward OH's view that we should shoot the lot of them.
Impractical I know but it would solve the problem.

[Nick]

Spot on Snoops.Unfortunately!

[Pastis]

The cynicism is wholly understandable and your experiences wouldn't really result in anything other, sadly. I've been party to various initiatives locally for 7 or 8 years with varying degrees of success. Unfortunately it usually has the effect of squeezing the problem into another ward in the borough. It all sounds very 'nimby' but then if you've got rubbish in your back yard you're going to try and get rid of it aren't you?
The point with the school is that they can't be squeezed elsewhere - their problems have to be confronted.

To be honest I'm wondering whether it was wise to start this thread; there's stuff I'm not prepared to go into in open forum 

[Snoopy]

We were told it was because there was nothing for the yoof in the village.
We opened a Youth Club  ~ the County Council withheld their promised funding until we "proved" it would work. We funded it ourselves (as parents) and we saw a "Youth Worker" attend once in six months. The members became ever more out of control. Two parents were assaulted by 13 year olds from outside of the village so we restricted membership to strictly residents only and no guests unless related to the member (eg visiting cousins etc). Council funding was still withheld ~ now because we were no longer "inclusive". We had 75 registered members and the hall only has a licence for 120 persons in total. We raised funds, provided a pool table, a disco deck and speakers etc, we laid on instruction in various arts and crafts (in a separate room for those that wanted to join in such activities). Further assaults occurred. We got the police (local bobby) to come along in civvies "to be more approachable". One lippy little sod tried to assault him. We suspended the club for two weeks and reopened and it got worse. We heard noises on the roof one evening, investigation revealed three club members on the roof throwing tiles into neighbouring gardens. We paid the village hall for the repairs and suspended the club for a month and tried again. After three years of this we closed the club.

Over the same time we raised £76,000.00 and built a playground (swings, roundabouts, slides, toddler area etc) all with the highest spec equipment and safety features. Next to this we built a high spec skateboard and mountain bike area with ramps etc and a safety area with seating for those teenagers (mainly girls) wishing to watch whilst the boys performed their stunts. We then went on to raise a further £60,000.00 to build a Multi Use Games Area (basically an all weather five aside pitch suitable for either football or basketball) with built in goals, "dugout" area, basket ball hoops built into the fencing and installed spotlights for evening fixtures. Three years from start (first meeting to elect a committee, me as Secretary) to finish of project but we had the skating area and playground up within the first 18 months.

One month after opening we had to clean the area of broken glass etc and found 21 needles 
We have had to ask the police to patrol the area as a matter of course. It has attracted flashers.

The new facilities are in a village centre park which also has a full sized grass football pitch. Remember this is only a village with 1980 on the electoral roll.

We have started an under 10s and an under 11s football team. This coming season the under 11s become under 12s, the under 10s move up to under 11s and we will have an new under 10s team.

We have a local rugby club that gives weekly training sessions free to village kids, I organise an annual Scarecrow Week during the summer holidays, which gives the kids something to compete in. Prizes are things like MP3 players so it is worth while them entering (because they are mercenary little so 'n' sos). Kick Boxing, Judo, Dance (Tap, Ballet & Modern) classes all run weekly.

This is best described as an "Aspirational" area. Most homes have broadband access, two or three cars and all the trimmings. There are no houses cheaper than £150k and that will buy you a two up two down cottage. There are good and frequent bus services into the fleshpots of Rhyl and Prestatyn with onward train links to Chester, Liverpool and Manchester. Approx one third of the village is retired folk, one third self employed and one third commutes to Manchester etc. Private tutors can charge the earth and still have more applicants than they can satisfy.
AND YET
We still have a "Yoof Problem" such as you describe (and I know what you mean by worse things happen than you want to write about here). Why? ~ Well we asked them and they said "We've got nothing to do" which of course translates as "We want to drink and smoke and all your activities stop us doing that that so we won't use them"

So we got fed up with telling the school management, the council and the police about our problems and, as you can see, did something about it for ourselves. We felt good and well pleased with ourselves when we had finished.

In fact it was a complete waste of time, effort and money because no matter what we do or what the schools, police and government say, how much money the Welsh Assembly, Westminster or the EC throw at the problem until someone wakes up and starts belting the little sods for indiscipline, teaching them that with "Rights" comes "Responsibility" and reintroduces National Service (Army discipline but once they have learned to march etc do not send them to fight a war rather get them mending roads and rebuilding the infrastructure of our country) we are going nowhere with them. If it takes Curfews, Borstals, Remand Homes etc then so be it. Those are the things we stopped doing and from then on it has been downhill all the way. Zero tolerance is now the only option left. We have tried everything else. Until these children learn self respect there will be no respect by them for society. We have got to stop giving them things, stop trying to bribe them (for that is what we have been doing for the last thirty years or more) and start letting them know where the boundaries are drawn and what the penalties are for stepping over them.

I joined (as a volunteer) the RAF in 1963. A couple of weeks in I gave a serving airman a lippy answer to something he ordered me to do. I got a rifle butt in the face for my trouble (still have the broken tooth) followed by 7 days of greasy tin cleaning in the mess kitchens. I never got lippy again.

[Pastis]

That's one hell of a sorry tale and aspects of it are mirrored right here. The 10' fence around the astroturf pitch in the park across the road has been pushed flat more times than I care to think about. When asked what I thought should be done about it I said "Toys out of the pram? Take the toys away. Period". They repaired it.

When our meeting is scheduled, a couple of weeks I think, it'll concern discipline and behaviour... at least, that's what's on my agenda and that's why it's been called. The staff recognise they have a big problem with their pupils; it'll be interesting to see what they say. When any other neighbours (and the school is a neighbour to the area) step that far out of line they get leaned on heavily. It takes time sometimes but we've had results - closed down a hostel, had people evicted and moved on, street crime rates dropped etc. But of course it calls for fairly constant pressure and frankly I often feel like packing in and moving out.

And if they start referring to their pupils as students, well, perhaps I better not. I heard an American teacher being interviewed recently and she was going on about her students... It transpired that she taught in an infant school FFS 

[Snoopy]

Oh yes! We have that debate with local High School rather frequently. One of the several deputy Heads (How can you have several? Assistant Heads would be better I feel) asked me why I took exception to "Students" and called them "Pupils" instead. I replied to the effect that "Students" implies study whereas "Pupils" implies that the children are being taught. She seemed not to understand the difference  ~ but maybe that's just me.

[Pastis]

Not just you. I have always been of the opinion that study began (optionally) when you left school. Up to that point it was mainly learning by rote, revising, remembering, possibly some thinking and deducing. I'm sure Nick will have an opinion on this... 

[The Moan Ranger]

A point that has me wondering:-

At school, I was always told that as long as was in uniform, I was the school's responsibility - including going to and from it.

When did it change to say that the school is only responsible once inside the grounds?

Unfortunately for me, the headmaster at Sutton Grammar used to drive his SD1 Rover down the same road I cycled to school on. One morning, I was going down the road "no-handed" and he drew alongside, blasted his horn and mimicked putting my hands back on the bars.

End of. I thought. At school assembly, after the usual readings and hymns, he went through the usual bits of info and finished with "...TMR, come to my office".

A week of 1 1/2 detentions followed because - in his words "when you are travelling to school you are an ambassador for it and the responsibility for you safety lies, ultimately, with me. Your cavalier riding and bravado compromises both. I will not cane you this time, but if I see a repetition, it will result."

He did and I was. Didn't do it again though.

[Pastis]

At school, I was always told that as long as was in uniform, I was the school's responsibility - including going to and from it.

When did it change to say that the school is only responsible once inside the grounds?

With regard to my impending meeting you have scored a bullseye 

[Snoopy]

Indeed I once received a clip round the ear for failing to raise my cap to a master. I was walking with my parents in the High Street at the time. Neither parent said a word.

But that was then and now is now. The local High School to us (which one attends and the other two will be going to in time) will not even provide staff for the school busses. They claim it is the responsibility of the drivers to maintain order. Quite how they should do this is not explained. They are double decker busses ..... no I can't work it out either. One driver got so p*ssed off with a particular boy (of 15) that he turfed him off the bus and told him to walk. Social workers crawling all over the poor b*gger within 24 hours, police interviews, threats of CRB records being changed. It took a petition from the other kids on the bus and statements taken from some 30 of them (mine included) as to what a pain this kid was to save the guy's job. Seems the boy in question was in foster care and had "issues". He was re-fostered out of the area in the end. OK I feel sorry for the boy and his problems may not be of his making but he was the one that punched the driver when told to sit down and shut up. School didn't want to know and only kicked up a fuss when the police insisted on interviewing the other bus travellers in school time, with school staff persent. Copper, mate of mine, told me that the head didn't want his staff "involved"

When the good burghers of Prestatyn objected to 1800 children being released into the town centre every lunch time (OK they didn't all go but it certainly looked like they had) the school's answer was to reduce the lunch break to 40 minutes making it impossible for the children to walk into the town and back.
Many meetings have been held but the school, supported by the LEA, say that their responsibility starts at 0855 and ends at 15.30. They will do nothing about bad behaviour outside of those hours.

A different High School (Rhyl) with only 900 pupils has a police office within the building and two officers in attendance throughout each and every school day ~ although they have downgraded the job to two PCSOs now I see.

[The Moan Ranger]

Good. This rule was strictly enforced - all teachers who spotted a pupil acting in a manner "unbecoming" would be punished by all teachers that saw them doing it - be it on the way to or from school, or at lunchtime when we were allowed to wander out of tthe school grounds. The teachers took it in turn to patrol Sutton High Street to ensure proper behaviour. Our biggest problem at the time was being attacked by other schools - local comps - who didn't like the Grammar school lot. The funny thing was that us Grammar school lot were not only more academically stronger, but also physically - our PE lessons were more akin to army drill. The local comps may have kicked a football round for a few minutes each week, but we were subjected to a tough regime - but it made sense and we were generally fitter and stronger.

Thus when it did "kick off" in the High Street between us lot and the comps, we would generally batter the shite out of them. Fists only - no weapons.

On these occasions, the teachers on patrol would turn a blind eye.

We never started trouble. But we finished it. We were upholding values of decency and it's a shame more of the general public don't feel able to do so anymore.

There was the occasion once though, when all three local comps surrounded the building and and battered a few of ours. A couple of our prefects took it upon themselves to unlock the Armoury and hand out about thirty 303 rifles to trustees, who then went and "persuaded" the invaders to leave it...

[Snoopy]

Seriously ~ I do feel that one of the major contributory factors is to be found in the simple statistic that 60% of school teachers in the Secondary sector are now female and only 40% male (there are so few Grammar schools now I have no idea about their figures). It is anticipated that this will be 70/30 within five years. Many schools cannot recruit suitably qualified Headteachers for love or money. Look at the adverts in the Times Educational Supplement. I know of two schools in North Wales who have been without a head for over a year now.

Frankly I do admire the female teachers who are prepared to face up to the daily task of maintaining discipline when confronted by a class of 30, half of which are testosterone ridden 15 year old boys, all horny as hell, mostly 6 foot tall and "brutish" to even look at. Meanwhile the female half of the class are nymphets, painted to the nines and all hyper critical of whatever "Miss" is wearing today, the shade of eye shadow she has chosen and "Whoever cut her hair? It's soooooooo last week!" BUT admiration for their courage apart they are, in the main, simply not up to the task.
Most at the daughter's school just walk out of the room. The THW tells me they are lucky to get 20 minutes of actual work done in a 40 minute lesson.

[The Moan Ranger]

Agreed. Most of our teachers were ex service and hard as nails. Respect was given. They were hard but fair.

But - to go back to my previous point - at what stage was responsibility outside the school gates handed back to parents? And for what reason?

[Pastis]

But - to go back to my previous point - at what stage was responsibility outside the school gates handed back to parents? And for what reason?

Although I'm tempted to say May 1st 1997, I think the drift has been occurring for years. I can still invoke the feeling that went with putting on my school uniform and the accompanying certain knowledge of discipline that went with it. Of course we rebelled against it at times but wearing it in public made us highly visible and subject to scrutiny.