Author Topic: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)  (Read 2253 times)

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Offline Barman

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The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« on: June 26, 2009, 05:03:24 PM »
Found this today... what an excellent, excellent post!

Quote from: NickM
There is no way to sugar-coat this (though they do) Homeopathy is utter drivel. It is complete woo-woo, shake dem bones nonsense. The best thing that can be said about it is it probably does no harm. It probably does no harm because at the extreme dilutions used by it?s practioners homeopathic remedies are chemically indistinguishable from placebos. You can?t double-blind test homeopathic stuff because it is identical to the placebo. Of course homeopaths claim all this shows is that double-blind testing doesn?t work. Well they would say that wouldn?t they?

You can of course get this juju via the blessed National Elf Service. You know the same National Elf Service which had to be dragged kicking and screaming to give Herceptin to breast cancer patients. The National Elf Service that can?t even keep it?s hospitals clean is squandering our money on magic.

But it gets worse?

Westminster, Salford and Central Lancashire universities offer BSc degrees in homeopathy. I have a BSc in physics so I?m a mite annoyed at that because it stands for ?bachelor of science? and not ?British Superstition Certificate?. Science needs to be defended because otherwise we?ll have maroons dancing naked round ley lines and calling it science. They might as well offer degrees in demonology or head measuring or casting runes or goat entrails or the theology of Scientology.

And those aren?t whacky institutions either. Westminster used to be the Royal Polytechnic and George Cayley taught there. Salford is a pretty big university and Central Lancashire is massive. The enemy is well within our camp. How would you feel if at any of those august institutions (and Preston Poly) you were graduating with a BSc in? say, microbiology next to some whacked out new-ager who was prescribing sugar pills for all ailments and who was getting exactly the same qualification as you were? You might be somewhat narked. I bloody well would be. It is counterfeiting the intellectual coin of the realm. You might as well dig up Sir Isaac Newton and bugger what?s left. It is in short a disgrace.

I seriously considered studying aeronautical engineering at one point. I never thought of studying levitation or yogic flying. Aircraft fly because smart folks worked the problems in things like fluid dynamics, thermodynamics, mechanical engineering, propulsion and control systems. Aircraft are not Tinkerbell and no number of children believing will get an Airbus or Boeing off the tarmac. That requires Rolls Royce or Pratt and Whitney.

Why do we tolerate this perversion of science? Because I think too few of us understand what science is. Too many folks seem to think any methodical system is a science whether it be phrenology, astrology, racial realism or dialectic materialism. I have studied astrology (briefly - a diversion before astrophysics - I am interested in the history of the subject and it seemed germaine at the time) and it is systematic and involves doing sums and everything but it lacks something vital that all true sciences have - empirical support. None of the above systems have any emprical support or even a potentially testable rational theory for how they work. They are just wishful thinking.

It is a common refrain amongst libertarians that the arts and social sciences are full of slack-bladdered lefty claptrap. I couldn?t give a toss about that really because Noam Chomsky et. al. can pontificate until the cows go home because they?re bored but I do care about science and I do care that major British universities are giving BScs to practioners of magic. Because that is just not right. If that drivel is counted as science, as science, along with chem and physics, math, biology, geology and all that jazz then we might as well pack-up and live in yurts because that is the endarkening.

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Most excellent, most excellent!  happ096
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Offline Nick

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2009, 05:07:20 PM »
Wenchy swears by it  whistle:
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Offline TG

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2009, 05:10:51 PM »
They should calm down and have a cup of nettle tea.

"It is a common refrain amongst libertarians that the arts and social sciences are full of slack-bladdered lefty claptrap"

Who are these "libertarians"? Are they nudists or summat?

I dont understand anything these days.  sad24:



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Offline Snoopy

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2009, 05:52:44 AM »
Wenchy swears by it  whistle:

She is not the only one ~ and if you think it does you good then chances are it probably will..

On a personal note I mix the best of "modern" medical science with the best of "alternatives". So far it has kept me alive. My reasoning is simple: If someone had never chewed the bark of a willow tree and found it cured his headache we would never have discovered Aspirin but people thought the idea was mad. Says it all really, there is much we have yet to learn,.
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Offline Barman

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2009, 06:15:04 AM »
Wenchy swears by it  whistle:

She is not the only one ~ and if you think it does you good then chances are it probably will..

On a personal note I mix the best of "modern" medical science with the best of "alternatives". So far it has kept me alive. My reasoning is simple: If someone had never chewed the bark of a willow tree and found it cured his headache we would never have discovered Aspirin but people thought the idea was mad. Says it all really, there is much we have yet to learn,.
Except that in double-blind scientific tests Homoeopathy has been proven not to work. And scientifically, there is more of the curative chemicals in a glass of my piss than in a prepared Homoeopathic 'treatment'... 
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Offline Snoopy

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2009, 06:24:25 AM »
Hawthorne Berry Extract is well know for it's use in treating arterial and heart problems. Was around long before Beta Blockers and the like. My cardiologist is happy that I use both. "Who knows which helps most" is his attitude.

Equally dandylion leaves boiled and made into a "Tea" are a very good diuretic and it is proven that Lettuce has a soporific effect as good as any non prescription sleeping pill.

All I am saying is "we don't know everything"
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Offline Barman

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2009, 07:03:53 AM »
Hawthorne Berry Extract is well know for it's use in treating arterial and heart problems. Was around long before Beta Blockers and the like. My cardiologist is happy that I use both. "Who knows which helps most" is his attitude.

Equally dandylion leaves boiled and made into a "Tea" are a very good diuretic and it is proven that Lettuce has a soporific effect as good as any non prescription sleeping pill.

All I am saying is "we don't know everything"
No, we don't know everything...

But dandelion and lettuce contain chemicals that can be extracted, tested and proven to have beneficial effects.

The very point of Homoeopathy is that chemicals (some prolly extracted from dandelion and lettuce) are diluted to the point where they don't actually exist in the solution. Moreover, scientific double-blind tests have proven that apart from the placebo effect a homoeopathic remedy is no better than tap water.

The point of the original post was to ask if a subject like homoeopathy should be taught in university (what do they do for three years FFS?) and carry the same qualification as one of the real science degrees?
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Offline Snoopy

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2009, 08:36:58 AM »
Hawthorne Berry Extract is well know for it's use in treating arterial and heart problems. Was around long before Beta Blockers and the like. My cardiologist is happy that I use both. "Who knows which helps most" is his attitude.

Equally dandylion leaves boiled and made into a "Tea" are a very good diuretic and it is proven that Lettuce has a soporific effect as good as any non prescription sleeping pill.

All I am saying is "we don't know everything"
No, we don't know everything...

But dandelion and lettuce contain chemicals that can be extracted, tested and proven to have beneficial effects.

The very point of Homoeopathy is that chemicals (some prolly extracted from dandelion and lettuce) are diluted to the point where they don't actually exist in the solution. Moreover, scientific double-blind tests have proven that apart from the placebo effect a homoeopathic remedy is no better than tap water.

The point of the original post was to ask if a subject like homoeopathy should be taught in university (what do they do for three years FFS?) and carry the same qualification as one of the real science degrees?

Take your point about degrees completely and also the placebo effect (see my comment "If you think it does you good it probably does"). But then with regard to universities (and in particular the "uprated" polytechnics etc) ~ they offer degrees in almost anything. It is incumbent upon employers to dig a little deeper into what the BSc or BA is actually about. That said employers still like to see that a person has the ability to apply themselves to a three/four year course of non compulsory education no matter what the discipline. Anyone who chooses the so called "soft options" and the "fringe" qualifications still has to study and, perhaps more to the point, pay for the privilege. There is no such thing as a free ride at university any more. If they want to put themselves into hock to gain a qualification that is, in the opinion of many, a useless discipline good luck to 'em. That's what me Dad fought a war for ~ so that these people can do what they want with their lives and money.
Having a "qualified" (yes from Sussex University) Homeopath (Homoeopath if you prefer. OED says either is acceptable) for a cousin, I know she worked hard, they have to learn a f*ck of a lot of plant biology/recognition etc + Human physiology and such, as well as the right incantations to use when mixing their potions and spells. I dunno if it really works or if it should be a degree that she has (Her BSc Hom seems to cover what it is for BTW) But I do know she paid out a lot for four years as a mature student and now makes a bloody fortune selling her "skills" in private practice.
Homeopathy is also available on the NHS so someone must think it has a place.
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Offline Uncle Mort

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2009, 10:14:03 AM »
I know she worked hard, they have to learn a f*ck of a lot of plant biology/recognition etc + Human physiology and such, as well as the right incantations to use when mixing their potions and spells.

So do witch-doctors.

Offline Snoopy

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2009, 04:50:32 PM »
Which Doctors?
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Offline Grumpmeister

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2009, 08:27:02 PM »
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

Offline Bar Wench

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2009, 10:53:55 PM »
It may well be clap trap. All I know is that modern medicene could do nothing with my dodgy immune session for nearly two years. With me visiting every couple of months for more antibiotics, more sick notes etc etc etc. Two visits to the homeopath and I was sorted. Other than a couple of migranes I haven't had a day off sick in over a year. If it's bollocks then it is bollocks that works for me and frankly that is all I really cared about.

Offline Nick

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2009, 08:24:12 AM »
I thought you had had The Itch  rubschin:
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Offline Uncle Mort

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2009, 07:45:56 AM »
Two visits to the homeopath and I was sorted. Other than a couple of migranes I haven't had a day off sick in over a year.

Sorry Wenchy but I find that very difficult to believe. What exactly did these two visits involve? I genuinely would like to know as I do think it's clap trap.

Offline Darwins Selection

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Re: The Enemy in the Camp. (Homeopathy)
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2009, 11:14:01 AM »
Two visits to the homeopath and I was sorted. Other than a couple of migranes I haven't had a day off sick in over a year.

Sorry Wenchy but I find that very difficult to believe. What exactly did these two visits involve? I genuinely would like to know as I do think it's clap trap.

You may be broadly right Uncle, but I make a plea on behalf of Acupuncture which I have witnessed being used with great success on lame animals.

As they are unlikely to have been swayed by TV programs, womens magazines or herbal advisors, I am inclined to think it works. I did on my hip.


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